That Death Show

Are We Doomed to Repeat History? Collective Karma and The Death of Empires

• Tim Wyatt and Anne Kelly • Season 1 • Episode 15

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Everything has a season, everyone gets their turn. In this episode, we explore the cyclical nature of civilisations and the profound impact of collective karma. We discuss the rise and fall of empires and point towards how emerging consciousness, a renewed connection to nature, and a deeper understanding of our interconnectedness can guide us towards a more fulfilling and sustainable future for all.

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Welcome everyone to That Death Show. You are always welcome. Everyone is welcome to join us here every week, every Wednesday as we explore all of the exciting possibilities that take place after the physical death as explained by the ageless wisdom. We want to emphasise here the profound truth that we are immortal energy and that death is not the final chapter. My name is Anne Kelly and with me as always.


is my beloved co-host, esoteric author, Tim Wyatt. Hello, Tim, how are you? I'm very well indeed, Thanks very much indeed. Yes, fine. Good. Well, I'm glad to have you here. We have something fantastic. We're not talking about the death of physical bodies today. We have a very exciting subject coming up, but first I've got to remind them about the sub stack that goes hand in hand with this podcast. is Tim's sub stack. It's called The Esoteric Perspective. It is free. And if you love what you get here on that death show,


You gotta go over there and it's free to sign up. You'll get this in your inbox. It's the Esoteric Perspective on Substack. Please check it out. There are links down below. And thank you, thank you, thank you everyone for helping us. We're heading up to 7,000 subscribers on YouTube. We can see the growth. We see you coming in. We love you. There's hundreds of downloads. We're heading towards a thousand downloads over on Apple podcasts and Spotify. We're so grateful for you. I'm trying to think of a name for them, Tim.


the viewers, not just the death show community, something like, I don't know, the Veil Breakers or the Celestial Crew. Can you think of anything off the top of your head? Well, as a person who thinks the world has too many labels already, I'm not anxious to create any more. But if you come up with something, excellent. OK. And so I will reach out to you, Death Crew, Deathies, if you have an idea, let us know. But before we get into the death of civilisations and empires, Tim, we have a question from a viewer.


and this is Marisol, they've been listening and watching and he says, I'm enjoying your series, it's very good, but I'm a bit confused about your perspective on angels and fairies. Are these not archetypes of consciousness rather than actual physical beings? For example, he writes, Lucifer and Jesus could represent aspects of the self, not separate entities. If we're all part of the one, why do we need spirit guides? Shouldn't the journey all be about...



self-discovery. It seems more logical to view these entities as archetypes reflecting different states of mind. All is mind, all is one. What are your thoughts, Tim? Well, it's true that all is mind. The universe is just a sea of unlimited consciousness which manifests in different forms. Now, certainly angels and nature spirits or fairies, two different classes of entities, they are not physical beings at all. take


no physical form and that's why they're very, very difficult to see. When we do see them, we see them either on the etheric level, which is at the highest part of the physical level, or we see them in their astral beings. The astral world is the parallel of the physical world. So they're not physical beings. They are to some extent, and the question is right. They are and can be considered as archetypes because they're seen in different ways by different people.


throughout the world in different ways, but they're nevertheless there as a class of entities. Thank you for that. He says also, he follows up here, he goes, I really appreciate this platform for discussing esoteric wisdoms. While these ancient teachings, he writes, are valuable, they often rely on symbolism and riddles. In this time of evolving consciousness, it's important to approach these ideas with logic and reason. He says also, I look forward to future episodes.


of that death show. Thank you so much. Thank you, Marisol. Thank you. Now, last week we were so lucky. We had Dr. B on. Dr. Eddie Bilimoria was on with us. And today we are diving into the death of civilisations and empires, the cyclical nature of all things, acknowledging that civilisations, like every individual, that everything has a lifespan, everything has a season. So, Tim, to start off, I would imagine the Romans, who had a very long stretch, thought they might live forever.


or rain forever. What are the common factors that show that a civilisation is in decline or is dying? Well, we're going to come on to some specific examples of this, notably this country, Britain, a little bit later on. But the chief characteristics are that everything, whether it's an ant or a sunflower or an entire galaxy, has a life cycle. And that depends on all kinds of different factors, not least the law of karma, because karma has a pivotal role on dictating how long civilisations last, what their influence is, and how they decline. But in every case, be it the Roman Empire or the Greek Empire, the Babylonians or the Egyptians or the Mayans or any other culture you can name throughout history, they all reach a high point. Sometimes very quickly, sometimes these societies and these civilisations


reach a high point very rapidly as the Greeks did. But then a process of decay sets in. There's usually decadence, corruption, people lose sight of the fine ideals that they once had. And what happens esoterically is that the advanced egos or souls who were attracted to these advanced civilisations no longer want to reincarnate there in their top families and in their higher structures.


And so they go elsewhere. And therefore, every empire has got destruction written on it from the very moment it's born. And if we think of Egypt, for example, Egypt lasted for three or four thousand years, maybe much longer than that. And it went through numerous different dynasties and it was invaded more than a dozen times during all those years. So it's not a single empire which remains. It's something which is constantly changing.


constantly fragmenting and constantly being subsumed by things elsewhere. And obviously new ideas come in. New ideas sometimes set the wheels of destruction in motion for a particular civilisation. Well, you know, whenever I do say that, as being an American living in the UK, and people ask me a lot about America, and I say, well, everybody gets a turn, everybody gets a turn, and it might not always stay.


that way. The Americans don't like hearing that. They don't like hearing that it's not going to stay where it's at, or the UK staying where it's at. We all take a turn on this wheel, this big cycle. So many would say though that now things might be falling apart due to our political polarisation, the changes to our environment and the ever-growing gap between the rich and the poor. Is this evidence now? Are we seeing that what is big now, these big empires, is this evidence of a decline in our modern civilisation?


Absolutely. The future of Europe is very uncertain now. European civilisation, I think, stands on the brink of destruction for all kinds of different reasons. And it's important to understand that these reasons are extremely complex. They're social reasons, political, economic, cultural, religious also, because clearly religion continues to play a huge role in this world of ours and influences billions


of people rightly or wrongly. And this has a direct impact on the particular life cycle of country, a nation, a civilisation, or an empire. You mentioned that the souls might not choose to reincarnate as that is finishing its season. I had never thought of it that way. But they die out at like a natural. Everything has to though. It couldn't be daytime all the time.


It can't be nighttime all the time. Everything has a season. So I didn't even think about the souls incarnating and choosing to incarnate elsewhere because that was done. Is that what happens? Well, that's what would appear to happen. And that's what a number of esoteric writers have commented on over the years. One of the most interesting of these was a man called William Judge, who was one of the founders of the Theosophical Society. He was an Irish lawyer who wrote some very, very


interesting books about theosophy in the early days, one of which was called The Ocean of Theosophy. And this was an idea that he specifically mentioned, that these advanced souls who are the vanguard of humanity, we might not like that idea. We might not like the idea of some elevated group of souls, but they exist. And they want to go to those places where there is the biggest opportunity for advancement and learning of one kind or another.


when those opportunities disappear, those souls choose to go elsewhere. Love it. Thank you, William Q. Judge. Absolutely. I've got his quotations sitting right on my desk. Just packs a powerful punch. Just thank you for that. Now, civilisations as they go through deaths and rebirth, growth and decline, we've talked about consciousness expressing itself in the last episode, this is Eddie's quote, consciousness expresses itself as matter, not in matter.



You and I have talked about even the ocean has a soul or spirit or consciousness. How does esoteric science describe the concept of civilisations or locations or places having a collective soul or spirit? Well, it comes down to the individuals who have or are incarnating in that particular country or civilisation or empire. This is a classic case of collective karma.


because we think of karma very much in terms of how it impacts on us individually from one life to another, how we're dealing with events from previous lives now, how we're setting up things which we'll have to deal with in future lives. We regard it very much as an individual thing, but it isn't because our karma is intimately tied up with many other people, people who belong to the same soul group as us, for example.


But so if you look at an empire, you know, it's the karma of everybody who's been involved in that, not just in that empire, but the places that empire has conquered as well. It all mixes up together and creates a very complex web of collective karma, which it's impossible to disentangle with our present state of knowledge. It's difficult enough understanding our own karma and we don't because largely we don't recall past lives.


If that's difficult, then trying to do it for millions and millions of people over hundreds or thousands of years becomes an even more complex job. But nevertheless, the law of karma always plays out. This is an absolutely unbreakable law. There is no escape from it. And so one way or another, negatively, positively or neutrally, it plays out eventually.


I think our individuality, even just, well, because we're talking about something, there are other channels and other things that are talking about it now, but just for people to even realise that they have karma that they are responsible for. I don't know many people who I've ever had a conversation with, and I'm 58. I don't think anyone has ever taken into account that they are part of something bigger and they're responsible for the, of where they live.


and or their family because there's still this, I mean my, us and them kind of a thing. It's really emphasising the unity of everything. And it's really a beautiful thing to look at the collective karma of where we live and what we're doing. Like if you're we're incarnating into places where it's extremely difficult in the Middle East and all of the suffering that goes on there, there's a reason for that. It's not just you as an individual experiencing your karma, everybody around you, your family.


This is your classroom, these are your tests, and you're a part of it all. So I think it's really important to stress that. Can a civilisation lose its soul? Some people have said that, it's lost its soul. Is that what's happening? Is that what we see? Are we losing it? And if so, why and what can we do about it? Britain is a country which is a classic example of a country losing its soul and its spirit.


Throughout my entire lifetime, Britain has been committing a kind of slow suicide, self-destruction, and managed decline. It's suddenly become embarrassed about its past, about its achievements. It goes into great debates about how we should regard Britain today. It used to be at the forefront of technology. It had worldwide influence. It still has a degree of influence, but that influence has declined.


because the self-belief in Britain, for whatever reason, and I'm sure they're extremely complicated, has gone. And it's almost become an institutionalised thing to look on Britain as a declining nation. But I think there's a reaction taking place against this now in all sorts of ways, not just in the political arena, but I do think people are starting to look on these things in a very different way because the world we live in now,


is much more intimately interconnected than it ever was before. It's always been interconnected, but technology has enabled it to be more so. And this, of course, is also having a particular impact on these things. an American looking towards Britain, I believe that we, and I don't want to offend any Americans, I was born there, but we are quite adolescent, quite young.



and we really don't see the world. Not everybody has a passport. You just don't really see outside yourself. And we're really quite young and like a teenager. And I see life over here, there's a lot more maturity. It's a lot more calm. There's a lot more experience. And I just find this to be, I don't know, I look towards Britain as quite, it's beautiful. I love living here. I love everything about it. And I think that, like again, I said,


Everybody gets a turn. So who do you think, can we talk about this? Who do you think is next though? Who's next if these civilisations are falling? Who is going to be coming into play? This is a completely different question. We normally wouldn't talk about this, but I'm curious. Well, I think it's part of a very long and complicated process. mean, clearly all the events that happen on earth happen for a particular reason. There have always been conquests and invasions and


people taking over other cultures and intermingling with those people. Ideas have got shared. So no tribe or clan or country ever operates in isolation, even in the past. And this is very much more so now. But we have a number of competing ideologies in the world at the moment, which are entirely antagonistic towards one another. Now we can say, as many of the politicians do, well, we have to prepare for yet another war.


But think we've reached a point where we can't do that anymore. We have to start looking at how we take these civilisations forward. And it's very difficult, isn't it, to try and rationalise the interests of China, Russia, America, Europe, Africa, and all the other locations on the world, because their agendas are not necessarily the same. And all attempts to homogenise this into some kind of global agenda are destined to failure anyway, and that's causing


In fact, I believe a lot of the conflicts in the world at the moment. So as far as Europe is concerned, well, Europe is changing and Europe will not be the same place a hundred years from now, just as it isn't the same as it was at the end of the first world war. So we have to adapt to these changes, but we have to understand why they're happening, understanding the process, not necessarily the minutiae of it all, but the process involved in it.



this, know, birth, growth, maturity, decline and death, this inevitability, this cycle. We have to understand this and see where we are, if we can figure it out, where we are in this particular cycle now. And to understand it is to have a greater degree of control over that. thank you for that. That's true. We live on a ball, a little ball. We're all...


on this one tiny little ball in this ever-expanding universe. And that's why studying perennial philosophy, theosophy, these esoteric teachings, you get the bigger picture. It teaches you about the bigger picture in your place in it. And to me, I find it very, very comforting. Death, find very comforting. The cycles, I find very comforting. And I can see that we do need to learn to work together. Is it because a majority


are those that are fighting to gain control of this little rock? Is it because we think that this is the only life that there is and earthly power is all that there is? If we understood, if more people understood that there is more to our story, that death is not the end, that we continue but you don't get to take it with you, that you must be responsible for how you behaved and how you treated others, do you think that if more people understood?


perennial philosophy or the teachings, these ageless teachings that we wouldn't be fighting like this, we wouldn't be destroying ourselves? Well, I'm not sure that it would actually put an end to war, but I think it would stop a lot of the conflict if people understand that they are part of an ongoing continuum. And if they create destruction and devastation now, then they're going to


have to face that at some point in the future when they incarnate again. So if more people did understand the fact that they are souls who happen to be occupying human bodies and who will be around again and again and again, I'm sure that over time that would modify the way that people think. But we are so mired in the materialistic mindset that for a lot of people, whether they're from China, America, Russia or wherever,



Now, they don't have much of a spiritual dimension to their lives. They see it in terms of material goods. They see it in terms of power, of control and all these things. It's these concepts of power, control, domination. These are functions of the lower self and these are the things that humanity really needs to start dealing with because they've reached a point where they could


provide the seeds for humanity's own destruction. And I know it's a cliche to say that, but I don't think we can say it often enough because we clearly are at a point where we're capable of doing this. And there are people crazy enough and mad enough in this world to want to do that. Well, I often think we don't deserve Earth, the way we treat each other, other beings, the Earth itself. I'm like, well, we would deserve that. If that's what we're going to do, then we would absolutely deserve that. I, what can I do?


And that's what I'm thinking is those that are listening, feeling this way going, damn it, I'm responsible for all of this going on. I'm a part of this. Yes, you are, you are, but don't lose hope because you can do something with yourself. You change yourself, you change the world. That's what's been said. When you change yourself, you change the world. You overcome your lower self, your greed, your anger, your fear, your judgment, your selfishness. Selfishness, the reason for most suffering.


on this planet, you can, you actually can make a difference. You have the ability to do that. And that's why we're sharing these teachings with you. And this is just getting on the, flitting on the surface. There's really so much more to it. And our technology is rapidly advancing and accelerating exponentially. Is this technology, do you feel, now I know how you feel sometimes about the social media and stuff like that, but do you believe that this is a factor in our, in the,


decline or is it because of our dependence and isolation? What do you think about technology adding to our decline? Well, technology is very much a double-edged sword, isn't it? We all benefit from the technological advances of the last hundred years. We have electricity in our homes. We can speak to someone instantly at the other side of the world. can peer into the farthest depths of space. We can look at the most minute particles of matter. But the problem is that this technology becomes very, very self-serving. It becomes very addictive. It can be used to control and exploit people, to surveil them, and to dominate their lives in all sorts of different ways. There is no doubt that social media is contributing to a mental health crisis, certainly in the West and probably elsewhere as well. I don't think we should wholly condemn technology, but we should put it in its place and it should remain in the cupboard as our servant. Very well said, very well said. It is the language of today. That's how everybody is on their phones, short attention span and it's massive amounts of information. And you're seeing the creators literally from their homes speaking right to you. You're no longer getting filtered through the...


the networks and the editors, it's coming straight to you and it is in massive quantities. And it's just a completely different world. We're going to do an episode on it next, actually. We're going to be talking about technologies, but it has absolutely changed the world. But to me, it is the language of today and there is no getting around not functioning within it, even though it is extremely challenging sometimes. I wanted to ask throughout history, has there ever been a civilisation


that has actually been able to maintain and avoid cyclical death. Is there anyone, I know the Egyptians had a long stretch, the Romans too. Did anybody ever do it right enough, even Atlantis? But I mean, did anybody do it right enough to maybe still be here today in some form or shape? Well, that would be an impossibility because as we know, those of us who've studied the perennial


philosophy and the esoteric wisdom know that nothing stays the same for a moment. It's always chaos and order rolling on by in one form or another. And so it would be impossible to maintain that static nature of a civilisation apart from the fact that it would be undesirable. There are always people in any culture and society who want to keep things as they are.


people we would call, you know, with a small c, conservatives, people who like tradition, who don't want anything to change. By the same token, there are always people with more radical ideas and there's always going to be an interplay between these people because people have very, very different agendas. And that in a sense will fuel the dynamics of that country or organisation or empire or whatever. But it will ensure that it doesn't stay the same.


from one day to the next. might appear to be that way, but it doesn't. Changes happen often very, very subtly. So no civilisation has ever maintained homeostasis for any prolonged period of time. And another reason for that is that because of the way that humanity develops through a number of different development groups and branch groups and sub-races and all sorts of things,


There are always constantly new people coming on board to present fresh ideas and continue that dynamic. So a static society for any great length of time is not really possible. That's true. Be like living forever. Nothing lasts forever. There's always impermanence. There's always change and everything comes to an end, no matter what it is. If it's something fantastic, it will come to an end. If it's something really, really horrible, it will come to an end. That is what we talk about the cycles of nature.


also as well is there might be, because of these changes, because of this impact, because of everything that's going on, there might be new forms of consciousness emerging from these challenges in our civilisations. What are your thoughts on that? This could be part of this evolution wheel. think there definitely, definitely is an uplift in human consciousness and it's been unfolding for some time, despite often outward appearances.


Human beings are becoming more intelligent, but they're also developing other faculties as well. They're developing other forms of consciousness, not just going beyond the lower self and the lower mind into the higher self and the higher mind, but also starting to develop new ways of looking at the world, which are not based on rationality and logic, but are based on a principle called the wisdom intuition principle. And this is where we receive inspiration, insights and all sorts of other things from somewhere beyond ourselves and which are filtered into our consciousness, not via the intellectual mind. They come in as pure ideas and many philosophers have spoken about this throughout the years. And this is definitely what's happening despite unprecedented levels of frailty fuelled largely by


greed in technology, human beings are developing the spiritual aspects to themselves more rapidly than they've probably done certainly at any other time I can think of. hopefully this is leading us towards deeper connection to our own spiritual values, a more meaningful existence, working in harmony with one another and nature. And that is imperative because we are here, we have incarnated here at this particular time. This is our classroom.


That is part of it. Do you have any final thoughts before we move forward, Tim? Well, I think you just hit the nail on the head by saying the important thing we need to do is first of all reconnect with ourselves and then reconnect with nature. And the two processes are actually very, very similar to each other. We need to understand that everything in this universe is alive, conscious, evolving, developing, and we're part of that. And when we understand that we are


part of this wider continuum in and out of physical bodies. That's when we really start to liberate ourselves from our lower selves and our lower aspirations. Perfect. Thank you. That's true. Everything dies, civilisations, relationships, us, but that's nothing to worry about because worry is a waste of time. Worry is an insatiable thief distracting you, keeping you locked in the cycles of fear. Remember,


You've got to live in the present moment. The present moment is what you've got. It's going to be okay. We're all going to die, but if it's not okay, it's not over. Your story is not over. You don't end. So don't forget to check out the Substack that goes hand in hand with this podcast. It is Tim's relatively new Substack. He's cranking out the material. It's called The Esoteric Perspective. It's free. Just sign up. I've got the links right down below. And if you like what you hear here, you're going to find way more of it over there. And I highly recommend you head over that way. It is called The Esoteric.



perspective and don't forget about the Myth of Death. The Myth of Death, which is the reason we're sitting in these chairs, it is the most comforting documentary. came out this summer. It is free to watch on our YouTube channel called That Death Show where you're watching this or if you're listening to this, head on over to YouTube at That Death Show and watch the Myth of Death, smashing it at film festivals around the globe. You watch it absolutely free and remember, check out his book as well, Everyone's Book of the Dead.


It is available at firewheelbooks.co.uk. The link is down below. So you being here means so much to us. We love you all to death and beyond and throughout all of your lives and deaths. We love you. Thank you so much. We are a tiny little team. It's just Tim and I dig in the ditches here for this little podcast. We're gonna give it our best. It's only about two months old right now, but we're gonna keep going and we need your support. If you can, we're gonna try to think of a name for you. I don't know about mortality minions. doesn't, I don't like.


You're off something, but anyway, need, we need something for you. But if you can, please, please like, share, subscribe, rate, review. Together we can help get this invaluable content, these ageless wisdoms out into the world where everybody can have access and they are so desperately needed to offer comfort, hope, and understanding. So next week, we're gonna be talking about the life and death of technologies. So that is coming up. We will see you right here on Wednesday. I love you and we'll see you next week.


Bye, everybody. Bye bye. Bye bye.